Ginny Sue - the golden years
Jul. 28th, 2005 12:46 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
selene_13I just skimmed the old "Is Ginny a Mary Sue?" thread over at Portkey (see http://talk.portkey.org/index.php?showtopic=13138&st=0). Oh, the irony.
Many great points were made about Ginny's danger of becoming a Sue. Ana and I argued the signs were there. Some argued against it. I think we've all been taught the truth by experience now, haven't we?
I share the fear of some of you that Ginny may turn out to be a Mary Sue. Having been around in fandom for several years (long before there even was a HP series), I have come across a fair share of MS's. I am ashamed to say, that the first fics I wrote (long ago, not in HP), had Mary Sue present in all her shining glory. Needless to say, it's a dark area in my writing career. As soon as I knew better, I developed an intense dislike of MS. I am a heavy fic reader, and even a glimpse of MS will make me hit the back-button, which happens fairly often. Sometimes the MS is a new character (usually paired with the author's fav. character), but sometimes it's using a character that is already there, and filling in the blancs in her underdevelopment in accordence to the author's MS purposes.
Unfortunately for Ginny, pre-OotP, she became the nr. 1 girl MS-ed girl in fanfic (leaving aside the female exchange student from the US). There was so much unknown about her, it was easy to make her be whatever the author wanted her to be. Who could tell what Ginny was really like or what she would grow up to be? We hardly got to know her, after all, so who could call her OoC? If Harry was your hero, and you wanted to be the one to "make it all better" for him, just insert yourself as Ginny! (there were a fair amount of Hermione Sue's around too, but as Hr is very fleshed out in the books, I would sooner call this bad writing (having a character behave wildly OoC) than MS-ism).
Then OotP came out, and suddenly there was Ginny as we never saw her before: feisty, brazen, outspoken, popular, a good seeker (she played two games and won both), fun (dancing around with F&G), and along for the ride at the DoM. I certainly had an inkling of MS making her presence known.
This doesn't mean that Ginny will be a MS. But right now, I'm a little worried. If Ginny keeps this up, becomes suddenly very important to Harry for no apparent reason, bumps Hermione down a notch to take the action girl role and LI (which has less to do with H/H than with the character development we've had so far between Hr and Ginny), and keeps acting brazen and intrusive without there ever being a repurcussion (resulting in it being a flaw, or perhaps some other flaws that make her real), then hello Ginny Sue. I hope JK will not go this way (even if it's less obvious than the way I listed it above).
I am, however, not as certain about JK not going down this path than some of you, as, as Ana Christina has pointed out, for an author it is sooo easy to fall into MS's thrall. Authors develop blind spots to MS and can be fiercely defensive of her (it's like insulting them personally to criticise MS).
When developing a character that we should love, showing-not-telling is definitely important, how else is the reader going to develop sympathy for a character? Ginny leaves me cold because I do not have any investment in her. If she suddenly comes out of nowhere, I'm not going to instantly fall in love with her. Why should I? It took Hermione about four books for me to really love her. What has Ginny done to make me love her in the one (OotP)? If she suffered terribly in CoS, I didn't see it in the five lines she actually appeared in (nor in her bark in OotP). If she'd died, I would have hated it for the Weasley family, but for Ginny herself? I just don't know her that well to care much (as opposed to the threat of Hermione or Ron dying, or even, say, some other Weasley's as F, G or Molly). If she is a great friend, I didn't see enough of it to care yet. If she is worthy of Harry's affection, I haven't seen what makes her stand out yet. What I would need, is more details. So far, IMO, she's a pretty flat character.
This can all be helped by more character development, which I'm sure JK will provide if Ginny will take a more important role in the remaining books. But it is tricky, for it would be very hard to make Ginny one of the main characters after her near invisibility in the four previous books. If JK is setting Ginny up as an LI, shouldn't we have learned more about the character and have more investment in her before the fifth book? Why should I care for Ginny with my hero when Hermione is right there? Why should I settle for a secondary character paired with Harry, when I could have a primary one that I already love? Ginny could have been that character had JK opted to develop her more before now, but she didn't. If she suddenly starts up now that half the series are over, I'm going to be disappointed. She had plenty of opportunities to throw in little details to deepen Ginny before now.
Whooo boy. After HBP and JKR's interview, I could die laughing for how right I was after all, or kick myself for being so naieve as to believe JKR wouldn't sink so low. I shouldn't have trusted JKR to not write a blatant MS... all the clues (anvil-sized clues at that) were there that she was. We highlighted them all in that thread; and there in HBP blossomed Ginny Sue to full fruition, touching every single cliche at that.
That's twice an author in whose fandom I've been ensconced has fallen into this pit, by the way. Welcome to the the likes of Anne Rice, Jo. Both a y'all manage to putrify your canon with Mary Sue's and insult your fanbase because you can. I bet you're proud of yourselves, your creation, and the buckets of money you made off the backs of these same fans.
Many great points were made about Ginny's danger of becoming a Sue. Ana and I argued the signs were there. Some argued against it. I think we've all been taught the truth by experience now, haven't we?
I share the fear of some of you that Ginny may turn out to be a Mary Sue. Having been around in fandom for several years (long before there even was a HP series), I have come across a fair share of MS's. I am ashamed to say, that the first fics I wrote (long ago, not in HP), had Mary Sue present in all her shining glory. Needless to say, it's a dark area in my writing career. As soon as I knew better, I developed an intense dislike of MS. I am a heavy fic reader, and even a glimpse of MS will make me hit the back-button, which happens fairly often. Sometimes the MS is a new character (usually paired with the author's fav. character), but sometimes it's using a character that is already there, and filling in the blancs in her underdevelopment in accordence to the author's MS purposes.
Unfortunately for Ginny, pre-OotP, she became the nr. 1 girl MS-ed girl in fanfic (leaving aside the female exchange student from the US). There was so much unknown about her, it was easy to make her be whatever the author wanted her to be. Who could tell what Ginny was really like or what she would grow up to be? We hardly got to know her, after all, so who could call her OoC? If Harry was your hero, and you wanted to be the one to "make it all better" for him, just insert yourself as Ginny! (there were a fair amount of Hermione Sue's around too, but as Hr is very fleshed out in the books, I would sooner call this bad writing (having a character behave wildly OoC) than MS-ism).
Then OotP came out, and suddenly there was Ginny as we never saw her before: feisty, brazen, outspoken, popular, a good seeker (she played two games and won both), fun (dancing around with F&G), and along for the ride at the DoM. I certainly had an inkling of MS making her presence known.
This doesn't mean that Ginny will be a MS. But right now, I'm a little worried. If Ginny keeps this up, becomes suddenly very important to Harry for no apparent reason, bumps Hermione down a notch to take the action girl role and LI (which has less to do with H/H than with the character development we've had so far between Hr and Ginny), and keeps acting brazen and intrusive without there ever being a repurcussion (resulting in it being a flaw, or perhaps some other flaws that make her real), then hello Ginny Sue. I hope JK will not go this way (even if it's less obvious than the way I listed it above).
I am, however, not as certain about JK not going down this path than some of you, as, as Ana Christina has pointed out, for an author it is sooo easy to fall into MS's thrall. Authors develop blind spots to MS and can be fiercely defensive of her (it's like insulting them personally to criticise MS).
When developing a character that we should love, showing-not-telling is definitely important, how else is the reader going to develop sympathy for a character? Ginny leaves me cold because I do not have any investment in her. If she suddenly comes out of nowhere, I'm not going to instantly fall in love with her. Why should I? It took Hermione about four books for me to really love her. What has Ginny done to make me love her in the one (OotP)? If she suffered terribly in CoS, I didn't see it in the five lines she actually appeared in (nor in her bark in OotP). If she'd died, I would have hated it for the Weasley family, but for Ginny herself? I just don't know her that well to care much (as opposed to the threat of Hermione or Ron dying, or even, say, some other Weasley's as F, G or Molly). If she is a great friend, I didn't see enough of it to care yet. If she is worthy of Harry's affection, I haven't seen what makes her stand out yet. What I would need, is more details. So far, IMO, she's a pretty flat character.
This can all be helped by more character development, which I'm sure JK will provide if Ginny will take a more important role in the remaining books. But it is tricky, for it would be very hard to make Ginny one of the main characters after her near invisibility in the four previous books. If JK is setting Ginny up as an LI, shouldn't we have learned more about the character and have more investment in her before the fifth book? Why should I care for Ginny with my hero when Hermione is right there? Why should I settle for a secondary character paired with Harry, when I could have a primary one that I already love? Ginny could have been that character had JK opted to develop her more before now, but she didn't. If she suddenly starts up now that half the series are over, I'm going to be disappointed. She had plenty of opportunities to throw in little details to deepen Ginny before now.
Whooo boy. After HBP and JKR's interview, I could die laughing for how right I was after all, or kick myself for being so naieve as to believe JKR wouldn't sink so low. I shouldn't have trusted JKR to not write a blatant MS... all the clues (anvil-sized clues at that) were there that she was. We highlighted them all in that thread; and there in HBP blossomed Ginny Sue to full fruition, touching every single cliche at that.
That's twice an author in whose fandom I've been ensconced has fallen into this pit, by the way. Welcome to the the likes of Anne Rice, Jo. Both a y'all manage to putrify your canon with Mary Sue's and insult your fanbase because you can. I bet you're proud of yourselves, your creation, and the buckets of money you made off the backs of these same fans.
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Awww
Date: 2005-10-12 08:44 pm (UTC)You were my only ally back then, and it was all sweet and nice; back then, there was still hope. But now... Well, let's just say that I prefer the both of us were wrong than facing the Sue-filled reality that HBP was. How much did you believe in Ginny Sue back then? Did you really think there would come the day when the both of us wished they were wrong in their assertions back then? (I know I wish that)
Re: Awww
Date: 2005-10-18 05:45 pm (UTC)The sad thing is, I could actually have liked H/G if JKR had built it nicely from the beginning instead of turning her into first a shallow fangirl, and then into an even worse kickass!no-characterisation!no-depth!Mary Sue. I don't see this great development and growth that Ginny supposedly went through, which JKR obviously thinks does not need actual exposure in the series but is touched upon by saying it just is in an interview... Phaugh!
Yes, I do wish that at least Ginny Sue had not come to be; that we were wrong. Instead, we highlighted every MS trap before, and were right. *sighs* /bitching.
And, nice to see you here, Ana! Welcome to LJ-land. :)
Re: Awww
Date: 2005-10-30 02:38 pm (UTC)Me too. Mainly because if she did not write Ginny Sue in, at least we could have enjoyed OBHWF in canon.
And, nice to see you here, Ana! Welcome to LJ-land. :)
Thank you! *hugs* I finished the post-HBP essay about Ginny's Mary Sue-ish characteristics and I posted it at HF here and here. I linked to one of your posts at PK, by the way. I hope you don't mind. :)